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The Atlanta Georgian,
Saturday, 2nd May 1914,
3rd Edition,
PAGE 1, COLUMN 8.
BURNS GRILLED IN COURT BY SOLICITOR
Famous Detective, on Stand, Tells of His Connection With the Frank Case.
Clearing of Frank Not Condition of His Employment, He Tells Solicitor.
Solicitor Hugh Dorsey put William J. Burns through a gruelling examination before Judge Hill Saturday in a determined effort to throw light on the tactics the detective has followed in the investigation of the Phagan murder mystery.
The questions put to Burns showed that the State has kept close tab on him and his men, apparently following every step of their movements in this and other States. The Solicitor showed a surprising familiarity with the men working for the Burns agency and the work they had done.
Dan Lehon, Burns' aide, was excluded from the room at Mr. Dorsey's suggestion, despite the objection of Reuben Arnold, who claimed the proceedings were not strictly legal.
Replying to a series of questions, Burns said he had been employed by Herbert and Leonard Haas, of counsel for the defense, and had been given full freedom in his investigation. He said the question of freeing Frank did not enter into the contract, and did not affect his pay in any way.
No Restrictions Whatever
Burns emphasized the fact that there were no restrictions whatever on his inquiry.
The detective admitted that he had concluded that Frank was not a pervert after a few hours' conversation, and said that subsequent interviews had strengthened that impression. He said in an answer to a question as to what training he had to make him an expert on that line that he had come in contact with large numbers of criminals and had more or less acquaintance with perverts.
Burns testified that he had not seen Conley, declaring that he considered it useless, in view of the restrictions that had been placed on any proposed visit. He was asked how he knew Conley was a pervert, and replied that the letters written to Maud Carter and the condition of Mary Phagan's clothes showed it. He said the letters had all the characteristics of the "murder" notes. He denied posing as a handwriting expert, but said the resemblance was very plain.
Denies Employing Isom
Under continued questioning, the detective said he thought Bob Adams was employed by his agency, also W. W. (Boots) Rogers, but not Charlie Isom. Dorsey asked if Burns did not have Isom get a statement from Aaron Allen, a negro in Chicago, who was supposed to have acted as a stool pigeon for the police at the county jail. Burns denied it, but said Herbert Haas had informed him in Chicago that a man would come to get the statement. He said he had an employee named O'Neill in Chicago who had gone to Indiana to get Allen, who was sick at the time.
He denied abusing Allen and said there was no money on the table when he questioned him, and that the negro had not been paid anything. He denied that Isom had paid the negro $100 in his behalf for a false story. Burns also said that he did not get all of the final reports of his men, some of them going to Sears.
The detective said C. C. Tedder, who figured in the Ragsdale sensation, was employed by Dan Lehon to work on the Conley case. He admitted paying a visit to Will Smith, Conley's lawyer, to find out if Tedder was trustworthy.
Shunned Ragsdale Story
Burns testified that Lehon had told him of the Ragsdale statement, and that as soon as he had heard it was about a story overheard in an alley, he had said he didn't want to hear any more of it.
The Solicitor asked him if a man in Chicago hadn't claimed he found Mary Phagan's purse.
"There were 300 or 400 alley propositions," said Burns, in reply, "and I got disgusted with them. Lehon and I joked about how many men must have been in alleys on the day of this tragedy."
He said he had never claimed the purse was found.
It is probable that Lehon will not be examined until Monday, when Judge Hill will resume the hearing of the extraordinary motion for a new trial, but Mr. Burns will be examined Saturday, so that he may leave at once for Oklahoma, where he is to testify in Government cases now pending in the courts of that State.
Duffey, Witness, Jailed
The examination of Mr. Burns is one of a series of sensations overshadowing the developments of Friday that are expected to develop between now and Monday, when the hearing is resumed. Solicitor Dorsey has caused one man J. E. Duffey, a recanting State's witness to be arrested, and it is generally understood that he has ordered the arrest of others. Duffey was locked up by Deputy Sheriff Newt Garner at 10 o'clock Friday night on an attachment issued by Judge Hill after Solicitor Dorsey had represented that Duffey was trying to evade the State's agents. Duffey, during Frank's trial, swore that he cut his hand while working on the second floor of the pencil factory and that none of the blood dropped on the floor. Later the defense introduced an affidavit from him in which he asserted that blood did drop on the floor, near the lathing machine in which was found hair supposed to be from the head of Mary Phagan.
Detective Burns declared Saturday that the trouble he had with citizens of Marietta Friday afternoon was one of the most outrageous affairs of which he had ever heard.
Burns Calls Assault "Cowardly"
"It was a cowardly and unprovoked assault," said Mr. Burns, "I am surprised that such a thing could have happened in this enlightened State. I did nothing whatever that I should have been chased by a mob and insulted with the vilest of oaths."
"I was in Marietta with Mr. Lehon, attending to business. We left our automobile at the garage, and started down the street, when a crowd began gathering. Just outside the doorway this man Howell rushed up to me, cursing, calling me vile names, and accusing me of being bought. Then the crowd came up, and one of the men drew a knife and started toward me, but another grabbed him and told him to put his knife away. There were cries of 'Lynch him!' 'Get him!' 'Kill him!' Lehon and I separated, and Lehon went to the Sheriff's office, while I walked down the back streets and walked around for about an hour. Then I came out on the main street again, looking for Lehon, and found that crowds of men had been walking up and down and riding around in buggies, looking for me. As I came out into the street four men passed me in a buggy, and yelled, 'We'll get you, you !' I walked on to the hotel, and the crowd gathered there and was very boisterous, insulting and unruly. I stayed in the hotel about an hour and a half, when Judge Morris and Deputy Sheriff Hicks came up and helped me get out of the town."
Subpoenas Served at Hotel
The subpoenas ordering Mr. Burns and Mr. Lehon to appear before Judge Hill were served by city detectives at the Piedmont Hotel late Friday night, after the detectives had returned from Marietta.
Mr. Dorsey also has a number of additional affidavits, bearing on different phases of the case, which he will present when the hearing is resumed Monday. Some of them, it is thought, will be elaborations of affidavits presented Friday, and others will be in support of documents introduced Friday. A number of the new affidavits will be repudiations of the affidavits which the same persons are said to have made for the defense.
One of the affidavits in the possession of Mr. Dorsey is sworn to by Mary Rich. It denies in toto the affidavit presented by the defense, in which she swears that she saw Jim Conley at 2:15 o'clock on the day of the murder of Mary Phagan. In the State's affidavit the Rich woman says she never made the affidavit presented by the defense. She asserts that Rabbi David Marx and Mrs. Lucile Frank came to her and asked her to help them save Frank from the gallows, but says she refused to do what they wanted.
The Solicitor will also introduce affidavits strengthening the State's charges of immorality with the women employed in the pencil factory. Among these will be an affidavit by Mrs. Maggie Nash, formerly Miss Maggie Griffin, who swears that she had frequently seen Frank accompany a woman into the girl's dressing room and stay in the place fifteen or twenty minutes.
Two sensational affidavits from W. T. Tucker and his son, I. V. Tucker, were introduced by Mr. Dorsey at the hearing Friday. The Tuckers swear that they heard screams issuing from the pencil factory at 10 minutes after 12 o'clock on the day of the murder, but thought it was only some of the factory girls playing and paid little attention to the occurrence. They swear they were standing at Hunter and Forsyth streets, near the factory.
DETECTIVE ON STAND, TELLS OF PROBE
Detective Wm. J. Burns underwent more than an hour's severe examination at the hands of Solicitor Dorsey Saturday before Judge Ben Hill. The hearing on the extraordinary motion was not to have been resumed until Monday, but it was necessary for Burns to leave town for a few days and the hearing was hastily called for Saturday forenoon.
The Solicitor went into every phase of Burns' investigation since the detective entered the case more than a month ago. He inquired closely as to the terms of the contract which he had with his clients, and asked if it were not true that he would get a larger sum in the event that Frank should be liberated. Burns denied this.
Dorsey went deeply into the circumstances which led up to the signing of affidavits by the Rev. C. B. Ragsdale, R. L. Barber and Annie Maude Carter, and indicated his suspicion that money had passed in all of these instances. He was unable, however, to show that Burns had taken any other than an innocent part in any of the transactions should the affidavits develop to have been obtained by improper influence.
Close Tab on Burns' Moves
He inquired as to Burns' ability to tell that Frank was not a pervert by a conversation of only a few hours and his certainty that Conley was a degenerate of the worst type when he had not seen the negro at all.
Asks Burns What He Has Done
Solicitor Dorsey was extremely insistent in his efforts to get the detective to say what evidence he had unearthed not already made public, what he had accomplished, whom he had seen and what new witnesses, if any, he had discovered.
"If you had no part in the Ragsdale matter and did not turn up the Annie Maude Carter letters, will you please tell the court one thing that you have done in this investigation. You have been here 60 to 90 days, Mr. Burns; what have you been doing all this time?"
Burns replied that he had gone thoroughly over the briefs of evidence; that he had examined important witnesses; that he had visited the National Pencil Factory and had visited the Solicitor in his office.
"And what was the result of all this work?" asked Dorsey.
"Didn't Need New Evidence"
"I made a report to my clients," said Burns, "in which I told them that they didn't need any evidence aside from that which was submitted at the first trial; that this showed beyond a doubt that Conley was the man guilty of the crime."
"Of all these witnesses whose testimony appears in the briefs of evidence, how many have you interviewed?"
"I interviewed Herbert Schiff ," began the detective.
"And Darley and Holloway and Quinn," supplemented Dorsey. "Now, whom else did you see, Mr. Burns?" the Solicitor continued.
"Well, I saw Frank, and I don't recall who else just now," said Burns.
Didn't See State's Witnesses
"Who of the State's witnesses did you see? What single one did you interview?" persisted the Solicitor.
Burns said that if Dorsey would call them off he could probably recall them.
"Did you see John Black?"
"No."
"John Starnes?"
"No."
"Newt Lee?"
"No."
"Did you try?"
"No."
The Solicitor asked how many times he had tried to see Monteen Stover, and Burns said twice. He was asked to give the circumstances of these two times.
Dorsey then asked him if he had seen Dr. Claude A. Smith, City Bacteriologist, who testified in regard to the supposed blood spots near the dressing room on the second floor of the pencil factory. He said he had not.
Examined Factory Floor
"Didn't you think this was important?" asked the Solicitor.
"Yes, I examined the place where the floor had been chipped up, and talked to a number of witnesses at the factory."
Examining Burns upon his statement that there were blood spots on the first floor of the pencil factory near the place where Conley was sitting the afternoon of the murder. Dorsey asked him if he really believed that this was the case. Burns said that he had been so informed and had seen the spot where the pieces of wood were chipped up.
"I understand," said Burns, "that these chips were turned over to the Pinkertons and by them thrown away."
The Solicitor brought out that the discovery of the blood spots and the bloody club on the first floor were made by Whitfield and Mc Worth, then Pinkerton operatives and now in the employ of the Burns agency.
All Evidence Reported
"Have you any evidence of which you have not informed counsel for Frank?" Dorsey asked the witness. Burns said that he had told his clients everything and that he had reported to them from day to day. Dorsey asked him if he were going to make a formal written report, and Burns said that he was.
"Is it going to be published?" continued the Solicitor.
"I advised them not to," said Burns, and added that he gave this advice because of the practice of "bamboozling and browbeating" the witnesses of the defense by the detectives and others concerned in the prosecution of Frank.
Sent Carter Woman Away
Dorsey asked if he had had Annie Maude Carter sent out of town. Burns replied that it was at his suggestion and that it was done for fear that she would be found and intimidated by the State's agents.
"Where did you send her?" Dorsey inquired.
Burns appealed to Judge Hill. "Do I have to answer that, your honor?" he said. The judge replied he did. Burns then admitted the Carter woman is in New Orleans. Dorsey asked him at what address, and Burns said he did not know.
"Isn't she at No. 314 Lower Line?" Dorsey insisted. Burns did not know.
"Do you know what was paid Annie Maude Carter?" the Solicitor continued. Burns said that she was paid nothing, and that George Wrenn was paid nothing, so far as he knew."
Calls Case His Hardest
The Solicitor concluded his first examination by getting from Burns another admission that he had no particle of evidence, physical or documentary, tending to expose the murderer that he had not turned over to the attorneys for the defense, and that he had no witnesses to whom he had not turned the attention of Frank's counsel.
Reuben Arnold, of counsel for the defense, then briefly cross-examined the witness and had him testify to the height of feeling against the defense and the difficulty he had met in getting persons to testify to the truth because of this prejudice. Burns said that he never had been in a case where it had been so difficult to hold witnesses to the simple truth.
Calls Incident Outrageous
Burns branded the Minola Mc Knight incident as the most outrageous of which he ever had heard. The Mc Knight woman was held at the police station until she signed an affidavit there which was damaging to Frank. He testified to talking with Albert Mc Knight when the negro told him that he had lied upon the stand.
Burns told Attorney Arnold that the brief of evidence covered the case completely and that a sane, reasoning person would not care to go further in search of evidence to show that Conley was the murderer.
"What conclusion did you reach from the reading of the murder notes?" asked Arnold.
"Notes Showed Conley Guilty"
"I knew that Conley was the writer and judged from them, in connection with other circumstances of the crime, that he unquestionably was the slayer of the little girl," answered the detective.
Judge Hill stopped Attorney Arnold from this line of questioning as Burns was telling of his conclusions after reading in the brief of evidence as to the number of times Conley had changed his testimony. Burns said that he had not interviewed Conley because he knew his mission would not be successful under the conditions imposed by Conley's lawyer, who insisted that he be present at the interview. He described the Annie Maude Carter letters said to have been written by Conley as showing Conley's perversion beyond a doubt.
Dorsey Asks for Instances
Dorsey, in resuming his examination of the detective, asked him to relate specific instances where obstacles had been thrown in his way, and where he had found it difficult to get at the truth. Burns cited the Conley incident and classed it as outrageous. He spoke in the same manner of the refusal of Monteen Stover to talk with himself or representatives from his agency.
"Why is it outrageous for a private individual not to submit to a cross-examination by four or five men in the employ of a convict or his friends?" Dorsey asked.
Burns explained that there should be no obstacles set in the way of getting at the truth, and that even the lawyers concerned in the prosecution had seen fit to obstruct him in his investigation.
Cites Visit to Dorsey
There ensued then a colloquy between Solicitor and detective as to the circumstances of Burns' visit to the Solicitor's office several weeks ago, when Dorsey is quoted as saying that if Burns expected the Solicitor to make the attempt to convince him of the guilt of Frank, when he (Burns) was about to make a report exonerating Frank, then he was wasting his time.
"You at least made a thorough examination of the career of Conley, did you not?" said Dorsey, in concluding his examination. Burns said that he had made a fair examination.
"What single criminal act did you find that he had committed?" asked the Solicitor. Burns was unable to cite any serious crime with Conley's connection with the Phagan murder, and the interrogation ended at that point.
The questions put to Burns showed that the State has kept close tab on him and his men, apparently following every step of their movements in this and other States. The Solicitor showed a surprising familiarity with the men working for the Burns agency and the work they had done.
Dan Lehon, Burns' aide, was excluded from the room at Mr. Dorsey's suggestion, despite the objection of Reuben Arnold, who claimed the proceedings were not strictly legal.
Replying to a series of questions, Burns said he had been employed by Herbert and Leonard Haas, of counsel for the defense, and had been given full freedom in his investigation. He said the question of freeing Frank did not enter into the contract, and did not affect his pay in any way.
No Restrictions Whatever
Burns emphasized the fact that there were no restrictions whatever on his inquiry.
The detective admitted that he had concluded that Frank was not a pervert after a few hours' conversation, and said that subsequent interviews had strengthened that impression. He said in an answer to a question as to what training he had to make him an expert on that line that he had come in contact with large numbers of criminals and had more or less acquaintance with perverts.
Burns testified that he had not seen Conley, declaring that he considered it useless, in view of the restrictions that had been placed on any proposed visit. He was asked how he knew Conley was a pervert, and replied that the letters written to Maud Carter and the condition of Mary Phagan's clothes showed it. He said the letters had all the characteristics of the "murder" notes. He denied posing as a handwriting expert, but said the resemblance was very plain.
Denies Employing Isom
Under continued questioning, the detective said he thought Bob Adams was employed by his agency, also W. W. (Boots) Rogers, but not Charlie Isom. Dorsey asked if Burns did not have Isom get a statement from Aaron Allen, a negro in Chicago, who was supposed to have acted as a stool pigeon for the police at the county jail. Burns denied it, but said Herbert Haas had informed him in Chicago that a man would come to get the statement. He said he had an employee named O'Neill in Chicago who had gone to Indiana to get Allen, who was sick at the time.
He denied abusing Allen and said there was no money on the table when he questioned him, and that the negro had not been paid anything. He denied that Isom had paid the negro $100 in his behalf for a false story. Burns also said that he did not get all of the final reports of his men, some of them going to Sears.
The detective said C. C. Tedder, who figured in the Ragsdale sensation, was employed by Dan Lehon to work on the Conley case. He admitted paying a visit to Will Smith, Conley's lawyer, to find out if Tedder was trustworthy.
Shunned Ragsdale Story
Burns testified that Lehon had told him of the Ragsdale statement, and that as soon as he had heard it was about a story overheard in an alley, he had said he didn't want to hear any more of it.
The Solicitor asked him if a man in Chicago hadn't claimed he found Mary Phagan's purse.
"There were 300 or 400 alley propositions," said Burns, in reply, "and I got disgusted with them. Lehon and I joked about how many men must have been in alleys on the day of this tragedy."
He said he had never claimed the purse was found.
Heard of Tobie Being Here
C. W. Tobie, the Burns man who was in Atlanta for a short time at the beginning of the investigation into the Phagan murder case, figured in the interrogation by Dorsey.
Burns answered the questions of the Solicitor by saying that he had understood that Tobie was here, but that he received no reports from the man. He said that he knew only by hearsay that Tobie was brought here by Thomas B. Felder.
Burns disclaimed all responsibility for the Ragsdale incident in which the preacher swore that he had heard Conley confess and afterward said that he was paid $200 to make this assertion. He said that his agency was responsible for it only so far as Dan Lehon had heard the man's story and had taken him to the office of Luther Rosser to permit the attorneys for Frank to do what they wished with him.
Not Impressed by Story
Burns recounted being informed of the testimony that the preacher had to give. He said that he was not impressed by the story, but that he did not object to its being investigated.
"When did you next hear of the preacher?" asked the Solicitor.
"Lehon came to me and said that an affidavit had been taken from him," replied the detective, "and he said that prominent men had been asked concerning his character and had made affidavit that it was all right."
"I remarked at the time that I wouldn't have a thing to do with the man, as a person, who would keep a story of that kind secret for more than a year when a man was being hurried to the gallows that he was despicable and unworthy of belief. I washed my hands of the man by instructing Lehon to take Ragsdale to the attorneys for Frank that they might interview him and take his affidavit if they so desired."
Saw Neither Ragsdale nor Thurman
Burns said that he never saw Ragsdale and that he never saw Arthur Thurman, Ragsdale's lawyer. He denied having knowledge of any money passing to Ragsdale, Thurman, Carlton C. Tedder, private detective for W. M. Smith, or R. L. Barber, who swore to an affidavit corroborating Ragsdale.
He said that he never had seen Annie Maude Carter, the negro girl who swore Conley confessed to her, until he met her in the offices of Herbert and Leonard Haas. He testified, under the questioning of the Solicitor, that the notes had been furnished him by C. W. Burke and that the first translation had been made by George Wrenn, who formerly was in the Tower.
"Was there any report made to you of what was going on in the jail between George Wrenn and others?" Dorsey asked. Burns said that he had received no such reports.
Had Notes Only Few Days
The Solicitor wished to know how long before the hearing on the extraordinary motion he had been informed of the translation of the notes. Burns said only four or five days. He then was asked how long he had been in possession of the notes themselves. He answered that he had had them only two or three days before the translation was made.
"Why, don't you know that it was before that that an attempt was made to procure photographs of the notes?" inquired the Solicitor. Burns said he did not believe this to be a fact.
It is probable that Lehon will not be examined until Monday, when Judge Hill will resume the hearing of the extraordinary motion for a new trial, but Mr. Burns will be examined Saturday, so that he may leave at once for Oklahoma, where he is to testify in Government cases now pending in the courts of that State.
Duffey, Witness, Jailed
The examination of Mr. Burns is one of a series of sensations overshadowing the disclosures of Friday that are expected to develop between now and Monday, when the hearing is resumed. Solicitor Dorsey has caused one man J. E. Duffey, a recanting State's witness to be arrested, and it is generally understood that he has ordered the arrest of others. Duffey was locked up by Deputy Sheriff Newt Garner at 10 o'clock Friday night on an attachment issued by Judge Hill after Solicitor Dorsey had represented that Duffey was trying to evade the State's agents. Duffey, during Frank's trial, swore that he cut his hand while working on the second floor of the pencil factory and that none of the blood dropped on the floor. Later the defense introduced an affidavit from him in which he asserted that blood did drop on the floor, near the lathing machine in which was found hair supposed to be from the head of Mary Phagan.
Detective Burns declared Saturday that the trouble he had with citizens of Marietta Friday afternoon was one of the most outrageous affairs of which he had ever heard.
Burns Calls Assault "Cowardly"
"It was a cowardly and unprovoked assault," said Mr. Burns, "I am surprised that such a thing could have happened in this enlightened State. I did nothing whatever that I should have been chased by a mob and insulted with the vilest of oaths."
"I was in Marietta with Mr. Lehon attending to business. We left our automobile at the garage, and started down the street, when a crowd began gathering. Just outside the doorway this man Howell rushed up to me, cursing, calling me vile names, and accusing me of being bought. Then the crowd came up, and one of the men drew a knife and started toward me, but another grabbed him and told him to put his knife away. There were cries of 'Lynch him!' 'Get him!' 'Kill him!' Lehon and I separated, and Lehon went to the Sheriff's office, while I walked down the back streets and walked around for about an hour. Then I came out on the main street again, looking for Lehon, and found that crowds of men had been walking up and down and riding around in buggies, looking for me. As I came out into the street four men passed me in a buggy, and yelled, 'We'll get you, you !' I walked on to the hotel, and the crowd gathered there and was very boisterous, insulting and unruly. I stayed in the hotel about an hour and a half, when Judge Morris and Deputy Sheriff Hicks came up and helped me get out of the town."